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Post new topic   Reply to topic    rSoGuitar :: Guitar Lessons for Visual Music Theory Forum Index -> Pentatonic :: Removing ABoy and YSis
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Tim
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: How Reply with quote

Ok you just play the chords in the same order but remove aboy and ysis??
How about the single note part what do you do to make that into the penatonic scale. I know I asked you this before but I guess I am not comprehending it.

Tim
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Pentatonic Scale from the pattern Reply with quote

Okay, actually, you can still play the ABoy and YSis chords. They tend to sound quit nice with the pentatonic scale. When you mention "one note" I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I usually tell people that if you remove the notes along the "diagonal" line in the pattern (it runs right through the roots of the ABoy and YSis chords) you have the pentatonic scale. So, it's two notes you have to take out.
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Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not following what you are saying about the diagonal line. Where is the line where does it start. With the pen scale the first two notes on the 6 string are 3 frets apart. There isn't any spot within your method where the notes on the 6 string a 3 frets apart. So I guess I am not following you with that. I had asked you about this on the eariler forum you had, you still have my question and your answer in the "guestbook" section on this site. You told me that the book covered it. Well I bought your book and it doesn't say anything about it.

Tim
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Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about all of those. It was giving me an error message when I tried to send it. So I futzed with it trying to figure out what was going on and I guess I sent about 5 or so posts.

Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Removing the diagonal to get pentatonic Reply with quote

Well, I don't know why I would say that an explanation for this was in my book...because it's not. But, now that you have the book, it should be very easy to explain.

If you look in the first section (page 5) you see the diagram called the "Infinite Bass". The dots form a diagonal line. Take a look at it and you should notice it. Well, if you turn to the next page where I explain the shift, you'll notice that the Infinite Bass pattern has been projected onto the fretboard with the shift included. There is still a diagonal line running through the frets (the only difference is that the shift is also there). So, when you connect the dots that are the diagonal, you just have to adjust for the shift when you cross it. Anyway, if you erase those dots that I am calling the diagonal, you will find the pentatonic scale.

Perhaps I can diagram it here:

--o----x--o----o----o--x---------------------------------------------
--o--x----o----o----x--o-----------------------------------------------
--o----o----o--x------------------------------------------------------
--o----o----x--o----------------------------------------------------
--o----o--x----o-----------------------------------------------------
--o----x--o----o-------------------------------------------------------

As long as this publishes right in this forum, you should be able to see what I mean. It's like the 1st row bridge set is that big 3 fret jump you were talking about, and the 2nd row is just a two and so on.

So, you could make a copy of a page in the book and take white out to all the notes along the diagonal...pentatonic. And all the chords fit right into the same places relative to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject: One more thing... Reply with quote

One side note here :: When it comes to playing pentatonic blues and stuff, there are many ways to tweak the rules. For example, using your eye to search for other places to "subtract" notes and reveal the pentatonic, you may notice that it can be found at the root of YBro too. Only, in that case you don't take out the diagonal. And playing it there also works with those chords relative to the placement of the pentatonic.

In my opinion this serves as a sort of visual for the kind of breaking / bending of rules that blues, jazz, etc seemed to invite and served to confound many European minded musicians of the time.

I mean, I have put a few deeply educated guitarists to task in trying to "pin down" the blues, to explain it in the same kind of terms as other Western European Classical music theory can be. And I have only heard from them that it can't. There are too many ways to break the rules. And that is why a few of the guitarists who I've encountered that are accomplished bluesmen, have a hard time adapting to my method.
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Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Removing the diagonal to get pentatonic Reply with quote

--o----x--o----o----o--x---------------------------------------------
--o--x----o----o----x--o-----------------------------------------------
--o----o----o--x------------------------------------------------------
--o----o----x--o----------------------------------------------------
--o----o--x----o-----------------------------------------------------
--o----x--o----o-------------------------------------------------------

I Understand a little better now but it is still not completely right. Where the scale starts (I made it bold) that note is running diagonal but it needs to be there. You can't eliminate it. And again when the scale starts over, there is a diagonal line but you can't eliminate that note either. This probably isn't a real big deal, the thing I am having trouble with is with the pattern being head set, bridge set, tripple block, that is relativly easy to remember and I see how it is suppose to work with the chord progressions but when you start having to take things away it just gets more confussing. I would be better off just to learn the set of pen scales and what chords I can play in a certain key that is being played. That to me seems a lot easier to deal with. Show me how learning your system will be advantagous to me. Maybe it is just that this way isn't good for rock/blues styles of music.

Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Pentatonic Reply with quote

Actually, that note you've bolded isn't on the diagonal. You have to remember the shift causes the diagonal to be out of alignment right there and the note you're looking for to remove would actually be one fret towards the head of the guitar.

You mentioned "And again when the scale starts over, there is a diagonal line but you can't eliminate that note either." I don't see where you mean.

I'm kind of with you on the point that it's almost easier to just memorize the pentatonic columns across the fretboard. That's what I did, so many years before I discovered these other things. But, at this point, as I play across the fretboard, I can just see the two patterns so easily that it's like a no-brainer to switch in and out of pentatonic to full pattern. I suppose it just comes with time.

However, at one point, after coming to grips with this new way of seeing the patterns I decided to work on bringing myself to see the pentatonic pattern more in the same way as I see the other (head sets, etc.). What I came up with was somewhat interesting and useful...and very much more like the Rosetta Stone Of Guitar kind of approach. I can share that with you if you are genuinely interested. But I really need you to be positive and give it an honest chance. I'm making this request to you because of your tone in your 2nd-to-last sentence. It sounds like at least a mild invitation for me to become defensive about my method. It reads a bit like a challenge. And if I'm going to spend the minutes and hours here in the forum trying to make a difference for you, I want to know that you're not just playing "devil's advocate" or something just to frustrate me.

Learning to use my method can be a bit challenging for some stubbord-headed bluesmen for a number of reasons, but whether they see it or not, there are secrets that this method can unlock that anyone would be crazy not to want to pursue.

I can show you a few things that I think may convince you. But my approach depends on where you want to go as a guitarist. For example, if you want to be a death-metalist, then I'd like to know because I'll need to stay away from complex chords (they sound like crap with very much distortion) in the examples I cook up for you to try.

Many students get a big thrill out of the power of running their fingers over the solo shapes, but they fail to master the world of chords. It is my strong opinion that the real power in my method is in the chords. After all, if you think about it, the real "style" behind music is more in the treatment of chords than anything else. In other words, if you find a good old blues song with a cookin hot guitar solo and you extract that solo and implant it into a song with different chord treatments, it can sound quite good. Some of the greatest guitar solos of all time are essentially blues solos over interesting chords. Stairway to Heaven, All Along The Watchtower, etc. I know from my own experience that I spent way too many years thinking that where the treasure was at was in soloing, when so much more was all a matter of chords.

In other words, I plan to impress you more with what I can show you in terms of chords rather than soloing. But before I spend so much time and energy I'd like to hear back from you about whether you'd like me to go ahead with the whole deal. I do hope so, by the way. I like a good challenge made in the right spirit.

I'll be waiting as patiently as I can...
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Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be honest I was challanging you, sort of. When I first stumbled upon this method I thought it was different and kind of intriguing. So I bought your book and it didn't show me much more than what was on your website. So that kind of irritated me a little, because I was hoping to be able to take this and use it to play the music I like. Like I said in one of my first posts I am fairly new to guitar and I am not too efficient at changing chords and making music yet. My goal is that. I can be open minded if I know that this method is going to help me play the style of music I want to play and that is rock/ blues more leaning to the rock side. I am a big fan of Zeppelin and I know that their roots were in blues. So if your willing to continue to teach me what it is you have to offer and I and hopefully others that are reading this will be able to learn what it is you have to offer us all.

Tim
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Well, alright!!! Reply with quote

Well, alright!!! : ) I feel like we may be getting somewhere! Now, to the task of making you feel that way...

Now, about your comment that the book didn't show you much more than was on the website...I beg to differ. It gives you the map of chords! And as I have explained many times, chords are the real power behind the solo/songwriting, etc. I didn't really "grow up" as a guitarist until I started conquering chords. I couldn't find a GREAT bass player until I brought up one of my best students to the point that he had a real clear picture of chords. Now he's my killer bass player and there isn't anything I can pull that he can't follow!

Believe me, I have evaluated my method up one side and down the other so many times it would make your head spin, and I always come to the conclusion that my method would be pretty "weak" if it weren't for the fact that I have assigned generic names to chords. You see, they serve to function just like key signatures in the traditional approach. If you tell a traditional student, who understands music theory that a song is in the key of C (major) ...he will know not to be surprised when he sees a Dmin or Emin chord later in the song. Why is he not surprised? Because he knows all the natural triads that can be built off the C major scale. I hope that sounds confusing, it's supposed to.

I created my method to help people who didn't want to have to learn to read music or even care about note names learn some pretty impressive music theory. So, if I put that crap in terms of the Rosetta Stone Of Guitar, what we are actually looking at is Mama on the 8th fret (equivalent to Cmaj)...and from there, (as long as you really have memorized what family members go where) you wouldn't be surprised to see a minor on the 10th fret(YBro), minor of the 12th (OBro), major on the 13th (YSis), major on the 15th (OSis), minor on the 17th (Papa), and even the most overlooked chord in the entire family, a diminished chord on the 19th. Now, can you let me know if this paragraph makes sense? It's important for me to know if you can "see" how I used the image of the family members, as shown in the book, to calculate where to expect minor chords, major chords and the diminished.

Of course, all this is still coming from my motive to defend my clever book. To me, the book is like the door...it opens the way for everything else. But you have to get familiar with seeing the way it wants you to view the fretboard. You need to get used to thinking a certain way.

Now, getting away from the more selfish theme above...

I think it's killer that you are into Zeppelin! I have actually been writing stuff that is kind of "Zeppelinish". It's also great because I can use some of their songs as examples in our discussion.

You say you are not real keen, yet, on changing chords and all that. Well, my first piece of advice is to center the chords you play around one of the two parents: Either Papa or Mama. I like the darker sound, so I spend a lot of my time focused on Papa. Further, one of my favorite intervals is between Papa and YSis...absolutely one of my favorite. So, what do I mean? I think you should practice playing a progression like this:

| Papa | YSis | Papa | YSis |

That notation means you strum a minor chord somewhere and keep strumming it four beats or four stomps of your foot. Those vertical lines seperating each family member are meant to mark each measure. So, if you did this:

| Papa | Papa | YSis | Papa | Papa | YSis |

That would mean strum Papa for 8 beats, then switch to YSis for 4, then Papa for 8, and YSis for 4.

I hope I'm not insulting your intelligence (as in you already know this stuff). I just feel I should make sure before moving on to the goods.

So, you may think Papa where? YSis where? Well, you could put Papa on the 5th fret...and, then, YSis would have to go on the 1st fret. (both chords on the Estring) Or, if you want to put Papa on the 8th fret, you would have to put YSis on the 4th fret. You can put them anywhere you want as long as they are the right distance apart. It comes right back to what I always say is the easiest way to understand my approach: Imagine that a projector is casting the image of the family (the map) onto the fretboard. As long as your fingers play only notes that are marked by dots, you will make sense...no "sour" notes in either your chords or your solo.

Boy, this is turning into another long post...

Now, let's talk a little Zeppelin :: The chords at the end of Stairway to Heaven are essentially Papa, OSis, and YSis. You could show it like this:

| Papa OSis | YSis |

Now, notice that Papa and OSis are sharing the same measure. That means Papa for 2 counts, OSis for 2 counts, but YSis for 4.

If I'm not mistaken, they play Papa on the 5th fret. From what the Family chapters are supposed to have taught you, as you read through them, is that you can expect all these other chords to go very well with eachother. In other words, in the Stairway to Heaven example, you can expect a major chord on the 8th fret (Mama) to sound really good with that song. In fact, isn't that what Jimi Page is playing while Robert Plant is singing lines like: "If there's a bustle in your hedgerow..."?
| Mama ABoy | Papa | for that part...

Now, I'll admit...this song puts me in a sticky situation because they do a little rule breaking. I really shouldn't get into it with you right now...because it will only serve to confuse you. I probably shouldn't even mention it, but I don't want you to discover it on your own and be deceived into thinking I didn't see it. So, go ahead if you like...use the family of chords (to expect certain chords where they should be according to the idea that Papa is on the 5th fret) and you'll discover that one chord doesn't quite fit the family exactly. One of the reason I don't mind talking about rules being broken is because that is your ultimate goal: To learn how the ear perceives and expects these chords to do what they do...that way you can learn how to use the ear's expectation to fool itself. Down the road you will discover that you can do any freaking thing you want as long as you use the right approach. Studying what I'm talking about will help you figure out some of the many approaches you can use.

Now, I have written a lot here. I really feel I need your guidance as much as you might need mine. I need you to let me know what explanations are actually working for you. I need to know what you're picking up on and what direction you learn best in. You have helped me in that goal a little already in your last message. Please give me more of that and maybe give me a list like: "In your insanely long last message I understood paragraphs #1, 3, 4, and 17. But I didn't get the rest!" Or something like that to get right to the point about what was good for you and what didn't work.

This is Houston standing by...over...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Dude! Reply with quote

Dude! All I can say is: I am one long-winded fool! Will you look at that? Insane!!!
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Tim
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for writting back. Yes I understand the reletionship that the chords have to eachother. Then how would you use this for a song like Bring it on home? It starts with a variation of 12 bar blues goes into some single note stuff and then you play

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------1/3--------------2-----------0h1--------------------------------------
------2/4--------------2-----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------3sb--0----------------

now how would you relate this to family of chords and improvising. Say for instace I was jamming with someone and the lead did something like this what chords would I play or if the rhythm did something like this how would a peson playing lead know what to play to match this??

Thanks Tim
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:57 am    Post subject: Great idea :: Great song Reply with quote

Alright Tim! You picked a good one. In fact I've been listening to that one lately and trippin out on how Robert Plant sings the opening part. So cool it's almost funny!

Anyway, I'd first like to point out something about the riff Jimi plays just before the one you wrote out. The part he breaks away from the classic blues shuffle thing into ::

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------4-2-1-2-1----------------------------------------------
-------0-2---------------------2--------------------------------------------
--0-2-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------0----------------------------------------------------------------

That whole phrase spells out the pattern as it would be situated if OSis where rooted at open E. That's the only place the pattern could sit without contradicting the notes. In other words, start your triple block on open E and the pattern meshes perfectly with this riff. "Do it not, and all of you will die today." (c) Braveheart 1997.

Please allow me to elaborate even more, by showing a potential run that would sound nice over that part. You may even want to try it while the CD plays: (Be sure your guitar is in tune with Jimi)

-----------------------------------2-4-5------------ (1st row bridge set)
----------------------------2-3-5------------------- (2nd row head set)
---------------------1-2-4-------------------------- (1st row head set)
--------------0-2-4--------------------------------- (3rd row triple block)
-------0-2-4---------------------------------------- (2nd row triple block)
0-2-4----------------------------------------------- (1st row triple block)

I'm jammin with it right now, to check out all the cool things I can show you to try with it. It's a great pick because it will show how many different angles you can take with it. Very much like blues, you can take your pick. The trouble that causes between you and I, unless our understanding is clear and I keep it simple, you may get confused as to what I'm trying to show you...or you may think that my method doesn't apply to this kind of music. But, I think you'll see it does.

I really like this format, too. You show me a song you want to explore and I'll do my best to shine the light. I think plenty of others can enjoy reading through our talks.

Now, my wife is begging to use the computer, so I'll have to wait to show you the two places the pentatonic can go: One sounds like country/southern rock and the other sounds like hard rock/metal.

Until next time...
This is Fred, signing off
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Tim
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Great idea :: Great song Reply with quote

Do you really play it this way??
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------4-2-1-2-1----------------------------------------------
-------0-2---------------------2--------------------------------------------
--0-2-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------0----------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I was taught

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------2bend 4-2-0-2-0----------------------------------------------
-------0-2------------------------------2------------------------------------
--0-2-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------0----------------------------------------------------------------

I messed around playing the way you posted and b sounds better than the c. I looked up the tab and some sites show a hammer and a pull between those notes but they do show a c. To me the b just sounds better but like I said earier I am fairly new so my ear isn't as good as some more seasoned players. Now how about the next part to that song. I know there is a couple a scratches, or whatever they are called, between each of the pairs of notes. I look at something like that riff, if that is what you would call it and it makes me wonder how a person would come up with that. It sounds good but it seems to be sort of random notes put together to make up the riff.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: How do you play that riff... Reply with quote

Yes, I'm very very sure that Jimi Page plays it the way I've shown it. Now, I agree with your bending the string, as you have shown. I wanted to keep it simple, so I left out any bending, hammer-ons and pull-offs that might be happening there.

Now, when you say that "b sounds better than c" I assume you mean notes? Are those note names? because the riff isn't on the b string and I never use the note "c". Perhaps you're confused as to the note names"

E-||--F--|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|---------------------------------------
B-||--C-|-----|--D--|------|-E--|---------------------------------------
G-||-----|--A-|------|--B--|-C--|---------------------------------------
D-||-----|--E-|--F---|------|-G--|---------------------------------------
A-||-----|-B--|--C--|------|-----|---------------------------------------
E-||--F--|-----|--G--|------|-----|---------------------------------------

Boy, that diagram looks like crap, but I think you'll be able to read it OK.

Anyway, the most important thing is that you don't play the open note G as you have shown it. Instead play the 1st fret as I have shown. Trust me...you may even want to put in the CD and play along. Your ear should notice the difference.

Maybe you expected the open note because of the pentatonic scale. Well, for the moment Jimi Page is not playing the minor pentatonic scale. He's playing it like OSis (aka the Mixolydian mode). Please tell me you tried that nice run I typed out for you:

admin wrote:


-----------------------------------2-4-5------------ (1st row bridge set)
----------------------------2-3-5------------------- (2nd row head set)
---------------------1-2-4-------------------------- (1st row head set)
--------------0-2-4--------------------------------- (3rd row triple block)
-------0-2-4---------------------------------------- (2nd row triple block)
0-2-4----------------------------------------------- (1st row triple block)



I'll talk to you about the next part of the song real soon. It's of immense importance as far as blues. The riff he's playing comes from way back...it's a classic and it's everywhere in the blues world.
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