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Dust on the Bottle

 
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georgejw22
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Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Dust on the Bottle Reply with quote

Was playing with this song this morning and working it from the family aspect. My Chords specified in the key I was playing B-F#-E-B and then G#-F#-E. When I started working it I came up with Mama-OSis-YSis-Mama and then Papa-OSis-YSis but the second part wasn't correct because G# should be a minor with the rSoG translation. So I tried it with Papa instead and made it minor and it sounded better than before. Then I started playing it else where on the fret board in different keys. Sounded great. Please correct me if any of my info is incorrect but I'm pretty pleased with my findings. Laughing
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admin
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Location: Southern Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:12 am    Post subject: Sounds like you made a good translation... Reply with quote

Hey, sorry I didn't notice your post until now. For some reason my auto-email notification thing doesn't seem to always tell me about a new post. I hope it works okay on your end. If not, let me know. I'd like to figure that problem out.
Anyway, I liked reading about how you used the rSoG method to rationalize the chords. I'm not familiar with the song, I don't think, but you're probably right. If you could point me to the artist and the track I could verify it for you for sure. What's so cool about knowing the method is that once you use it to correctly ID a family member you know where all the potential chords for that key are. In such cases I find myself suddenly taking the progression places the artist never intended it to go...like using diminished chords to add suspense here and there, just before returning to the home chord, and stuff like that. It's like, hey, the song goes like this, but you know, it could just as well have gone like this...and that's pretty fun and liberating for me. It really lends itself well to composing your own music. OR...or, you can take a simple song and jazz it up. You know, as you get more comfortable with this approach you will find yourself able to do what you hear those jazz players do. They will take a pop song and play it in the jazz style by voicing the 7ths of every chord, using substitutions, etc.
It makes me want to pull my hair out when I think about all the material I need and want to write to share more of the fullness of the journey that rSoG is destined to take people. Once you know the simple geography of chords...once you know how to see every song as simply every other song in terms of the pallete of colors that have been used to make them, you will know where all kinds of loopholes live. I can't wait to show people those "places".
If you read around in this forum, you'll get a lot of glimpses of me trying to show them, but I really want to be able to present them in the effective form of animated tutorials/videos. Wish me luck!
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georgejw22
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that's what it has done for me. When I just mess around and improvise I'm always trying to find the chords that work together, this program gives you that right and points you in the right direction. Of course there are places you can avoid the rule and move elsewhere but it doesn't hurt to have a map to work off of so you don't get lost.

This song is a simple country chord progression. It's called "Dust on the Bottle" by David lee Murphy. If I don't use sheet music I usually get my songs off Chordie.Com Here is the Link.

http://www.chordie.com/chord.pere/www.ultimate-guitar.com/print.phpreplaceqmarkwhat=tab&id=77010

and here is the song youtube style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT01hV3Bl_g

Easy song to play and easy to learn and that's why it was so easy for me to translate over after just learning your method.

Keep up the good work and good luck showing the world. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Dust on the bottle Reply with quote

Okay, I checked it out and it looks like you're right on the chords:
Ma, OSis, YSis,
Pa, OSis, YSis

and that progression seems to just repeat for the most part. I'm skipping through the song on youtube to see if there are any other bridges and changes, etc. It's still loading.

Anyway, so you just treat it like the pattern is in that key...Bmaj...in other words, put a 1st row bridge set on the 4th fret of the top string and you're off! Of course, that's where the root of Pa is...and I could just as well have said "Put a 2nd row triple block on the 7th fret top string." because they mean the same thing. If you spiral up from the 1st row bridge set at Pa, by the time you get to the 7th fret of the top string, you will be playing a 2nd row triple. I don't know why I'm pointing that out to you, you probably got that concept already and it's like I'm beating a dead horse. Right?

Moving on to my next thought, I'd like you to know that if you want to play the blues scale and give it that country feel, you'll want to play the same pattern placed just where I said above, but avoid playing the notes along the diagonal. In other words, if you look at the column where Pa is located, you would play something like this (very classic blues/pentatonic column of notes):

------------------------------------4--7------------------------
-----------------------------4--7-------------------------------
----------------------4--6--------------------------------------
---------------4--6---------------------------------------------
--------4--6----------------------------------------------------
--4--7----------------------------------------------------------

Of course, you could feel free to play all these notes, but to sound like a pro, you'll want to end all your phrases on notes that are in the chord being played at the moment your phrase ends. And with that same idea, giving the home chord special attention, so as to end your entire solo at once of the cycles when the chords return to that home chord (Bmajor), you will want to be ready to especially end phrases on these notes:

-----------------------------7---------------------------
------------------------4------------- on this string the 7th fret works too
-------------------4-------------------
--------------4-------------------------------------------
---------6------------------------------------------------
----7-----------------------------------------------------

Which, if I stack them like a chord:

---------7---------------------------
---------4------------------------------on this string 7 works too
---------4------------------------------
---------4------------------------------
---------6-------------------------------
---------7------------------------------

Which should strike you as the shape of like a Gmajor (if played down near the nut, like you show a beginner) only this one is rooted at the 7th fret of the top string, which makes it a Bmajor shape.

In fact, the solo sounds like it starts with a steel guitar that sort of slides from
---------7---4------------------------
------------------7---9--------------- and then it drifts up to higher columns
--------------------------------------- which I'll leave out as I don't want to
--------------------------------------- confuse you...but you can just play
---------------------------------------- that pentatonic column I listed above
--------------------------------------- and sound real good with it.

So, then the guitar solo starts with a phrase I like to call "honky":
------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------7-----7------7--------------------------------
----------4--6-----6------6--------where all these 6's are bent up to an 8
----4--6----------------------------and the grinding of the bent 6's and the
-------------------------------------7's on the b string is "honky"
------------------------------------------------------------

Which I would say the guitarist is playing exactly this, but it sounds like it's probably an octave higher, so add 12 to all those numbers and you'll be better off. Sounds like a telecaster too. I don't want to stress out too much with figuring the solo "note for note" and all, but I do want to say that, as I try to show ALL my students when we get on the subject of blues/country licks...the guitarist whose playing this solo uses a piece of one of the all time greatest riffs:

----------4-------------------------
-------4-----7--4------------------Keeping this beauty as simple and melted
----6-------------------------------down as possible, I'm only showing this
-------------------------------------much, because I don't want anyone to
-------------------------------------think it's more notes than this...oh, and
-------------------------------------that first 6 is bent up to the sound of the
note on the 8th fret (a "full bend" in other words). I don't exactly know the standard way to notate a bend in tab with just text...maybe it's just 6b or something but I'm not remembering right now.

So many variations on this "career making" riff have passed through history. It's well worth mastering. Now, you don't have to play it the way I've written it. You can change up the order all you want. And how many times you strike one of the notes in the pattern depends on the time signature of the song and the feel you want to accomplish.

I don't know if this riff has a name or is given an official plaque in the Smithsonian Institute, but it certainly should. I could rattle off a list a mile long of great songs that have all or a piece of this baby in it. For starters, you could look to the old "Johnny B Goode". You could look at the solo for "You Really Got Me." Hendrix is all over it. Clapton all over it. Page, Jeff Beck, David Gilmore and everyone else who ever learned the blues or country guitar.
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georgejw22
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Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to comment back about what you were saying in regards to the blues scale and removing the diagonal. I noticed this on your cd but have yet to play with it any.

Looking at this pattern
------------------------------------4--7------------------------
-----------------------------4--7-------------------------------
----------------------4--6--------------------------------------
---------------4--6---------------------------------------------
--------4--6----------------------------------------------------
--4--7----------------------------------------------------------

you specified removing the diagonal and playing Papa. Papa being the 6th of the scale. I know the concept that where Mama lies is your key and all solo's done there after relate to where Mama sits, but this pattern I thought was the scales key for the blues pattern which I have studied a bit also. This scale is based off of the 1 b3 4 b5 and the 7th, correct. In a B major scale; B C# D# E F# G# A# that would amount to B D E F and A#. With me so far. I'm doing this on the fly so if I make a mistake please correct me. But the scale you are playing with started on Papa or the 4th fret which is playing these notes G# B C# D# F#, which from what I haphazardly learned elsewhere is in the key of G#. Why is that, why do they relate or do they?

Looking at my guitars fretboard and counting around, isn't G# the relative minor of Bmaj. Is that why? I think I just answered my own question. Rolling Eyes oh well... At least I worked it all out in my head.
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georgejw22
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing that, if that is all correct, that means when playing and improvising I can go from Mama to Papa, change Papa to a Mama and work on the relative and then change Mama back to Papa and be back on my major again. Right. I know that sounds kinda strange but, the relative is usually three frets behind the Major so I could use Papa as a turning point of switching between the relative and major. I think I may have had another eureka moment. Laughing Excuse my ignorance if this is already news to everyone else but to me it's new stuff and very exciting.

Only problem is how can you explain that using your Family Analogy without getting into a touchy gender swapping conversation. Twisted Evil

Am I on the right track?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:25 am    Post subject: Hmmm...a point of clarification... Reply with quote

Okay, let's see...I'm up way too late tonight because one of my daughters can't seem to fall asleep. I have to get up at 6:00AM...which is now going to be a killer experience. Seeings how now I can't exactly fall asleep, I thought I'd try to get a reply out to you.

First of all, I'm coming into this cold. I'm not spending that much time reading our previous posts to refresh, so, bear with me. I might not be "all there" with it, but it seems to me you might be having a misconception.

When you say that you switch Pa and Ma...it makes me think that. This song doesn't change keys, which is what you'd have if you actually moved the pattern such that Pa would stand in the place of Ma (and then, later, move back). The pattern from this song never moves. Pa is always where he is supposed to be, as is Ma.

What you should be thinking is that the chords just move and you play the parts of the pattern you see fit. Of course, stressing the notes that are in a chord as it's being played sounds better than just rambling around, but the pattern never moves from its original position.

When I showed that pentatonic run:
------------------------------------4--7------------------------
-----------------------------4--7-------------------------------
----------------------4--6--------------------------------------
---------------4--6---------------------------------------------
--------4--6----------------------------------------------------
--4--7----------------------------------------------------------

I really only showed the 4 along with the 7 on the Big E just to complete the column. But, while Ma is being played, you wouldn't want to linger on the 4.

Do you see what I'm saying? I don't know if you really were having the thought that you'd be moving the pattern or not, but I wanted to make sure. This song is very straight forward.

Okay, now I just re-read your comments where you spelled out the Bmajor scale and ended up mentioning the relative minor concept. I don't completely understand what you said there (but you did say you were doing it on the fly...I ended up having to get my guitar to be sure myself so I understand that feeling).

I think it might help to look at it this way: I'll take your major scale notes and just remove the diagonal. So, you gave me (B C# D# E F# G# A#) where the notes along the diagonal would be: E and A#. So, the PENTATONIC scale for this scale would be: B C# D# F# G#. Now, check all the notes in this tab:
------------------------------------4--7------------------------
-----------------------------4--7-------------------------------
----------------------4--6--------------------------------------
---------------4--6---------------------------------------------
--------4--6----------------------------------------------------
--4--7----------------------------------------------------------
and you should find that it just cycles through all those notes: B C# D# F# G#. If you wanted to add that note that makes it a complete BLUES scale, you'd want to add D and get B C# D D# F# G#. In tab form it would look like the following. Now, since this song's home chord is Bmajor, I'm going to start and end the scale on B:
------------------------------------4--7----------------------
-----------------------------4--7-----------------------------
---------------------4-6-7------------------------------------
---------------4--6-------------------------------------------
-------4-5-6--------------------------------------------------
----7---------------------------------------------------------

I suppose if this song's home chord were Pa, you'd want to treat it more like this:
------------------------------------4------------------------
-----------------------------4--7-----------------------------
---------------------4-6-7------------------------------------
---------------4--6-------------------------------------------
-------4-5-6--------------------------------------------------
--4--7---------------------------------------------------------

Notice that I started and ended the scale on the root note for Pa, but the scale is essentially the same. That's your relative major and minor concept for sure. By the way, they are the "parents" and they are the relative minor/major pair in this part of the pattern. The other pairs are, neatly enough, YSis and YBro, OSis and OBro.

Give it some thought and try to see it as simple as it is. That should be your goal, always. If it doesn't look or seem simple yet, just keep pondering it and looking at the diagrams and telling yourself what you KNOW for sure. I'm always asking myself what things really mean, even as I think I have a good handle on them because it never fails to hit me even harder later on, and then I'm like "Oh, man! Why didn't I see it that way before! How bloody simple!!!" So seek out the things you can say you know for sure, or that you know you can rely on and catalog them in your mind or on paper. For example, I've been working with a bass player and I pointed out to him the fact that ALL the major chords start a row of the triple block. What that means to him is, if he knows it's a major chord he can roll out a triple block from there with confidence. After many, many tries, he is now very confident and uses that move all the time to add flavor and motion to his bass playing. He's got many more moves like that now and he says the backup singers are starting to turn their heads at some of the phrases he's pulling off. I think it's freaking awesome!!!

I always recommend explaining it to others, by the way. I can't say enough about this. It's really teaching the stuff that leads to mastery.

Anyway, in another post you mentioned the gender switching idea. While there isn't any in this song, there definitely is in others. As you work your way towards understanding Harmonic Minor, you'll see some of that. I didn't plan for that when I started out using this family metaphor, but it ended up happening! For example, you'll find that YSis can be turned into a minor chord to achieve the Harmonic Minor sound. You can even try it with this song...play it like this:
Ma, OSis, YSis, Ma, Pa, OSis, YSis (and on this last YSis chord, spend half the measure as a major, then play it as a minor chord for the second half of the measure). Do you hear that? You have to treat it right, half time normal, half time altered...then you hear the sort of sad, slightly desperate drama of what is essentially the Harmonic Minor scale. I use that sound ALL the time. I've become obsessed with putting it in everywhere I can. I've found that the best time to make the alteration is just before returning to the home chord at the end of the full cycle (Ma in this case). And playing it half time normal/half time altered helps ease the ear into hearing it without being too "off" sounding.

I hope you hear and recognize the power of learning such alterations. It's really where the rSoG is destined to take you. I count learning that skill among some of the highest you could hope for as far as theory goes. That is what starts to lean you into jazz, eventually.

Anyway, I should get to bed before I start seeing the sun rise or something crazy like that!
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